Philzone.org Discussion Board: Archive 2004: Politics Archive 2004: The liberal paradox

It is ironic to think that liberals in this country defend the arab world which has always opposed what liberals stand for. Homosexuals get executed in many arab countries and women are subhuman. Seperation of church and state and freedom of speech? Lets not even go there. At the same time liberals try make Christians out to be evil. Ah the liberal paradox! Will you lefties ever make any sense?

I am opposed to ANY form of religious fundamentalism - whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or, yes, even Buddist. It ALL fuels hatred, bigotry, wars, terrorism, etc, etc. In fact it is the predominant reason for much of the strife in the world today.

Of course I don't consider myself a liberal but you conservatives would label me as such 'cause I don't think exactly like you.

Actually I'd say it's quite consistent, your distortion begins when you insinuate that liberals defend killing gays, mistreating women, etc. What they're defending is that culture's right to be different, and to not have our culture shuved up their ass because we think it's the bees knees. Real liberals and republicans don't make distinctions based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, etc. We are all part of this human race...

>>Real liberals and republicans don't make distinctions based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, nationality, etc. We are all part of this human race...


Very well put mr mule!

It is ironic to think that liberals in this country defend the arab world which has always opposed what liberals stand for.
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Dude! I KNOW! It's like that moronic guy, what's his name, with that bullshit line "I might not agree with what you say but I'd defend with my life your right to say it!" Talk about a leftist paradox!!!
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Homosexuals get executed in many arab countries and women are subhuman.
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Soon we will have constitutional amendments in place to ensure those things happen here as well - stop worrying!

"It is ironic to think that liberals in this country defend the arab world which has always opposed what liberals stand for. Homosexuals get executed in many arab countries and women are subhuman. Seperation of church and state and freedom of speech? Lets not even go there. At the same time liberals try make Christians out to be evil. Ah the liberal paradox! Will you lefties ever make any sense?"

This is whats wrong. People actually think this is what the liberals think. Johnny 5, if you are a real person, did you read Ann Cultures Book it sure sounds like you did. I bet you are pro life but dont want to make sure all children have life insurance because that is a true value that most not all consertives think. When will the right get caught up in there own lies?

Man I cant take this no more.

Oh yeah I mean in 83' its was ok to sell arms to Iran while giving Saddam money and arms to Iraq during the Iran Iraq war. Who supported Osama in the late 80s? But I guess its ok because it was Regan and Bush 1. Who defends the arab world?

Soon we will have constitutional amendments in place to ensure those things happen here as well - stop worrying!

This is what I am talking about when I say that liberals try to make Christians out to be evil. I was raised Christian, but don't practice it any more. How could you even begin to compare the people I grew up with to the islamic nuts in the middle east? WOMEN ARE NOT HUMAN THERE. It is like night and day. Liberals hate America, but ignore what they hate about the U.S. when it goes on in the Middle East X 1000 . The liberal paradox continues.........................

How could you even begin to compare the people I grew up with to the islamic nuts in the middle east?
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I made no such comparison and didn't see anyone here doing that, don't know you, and have no clue who you grew up with. Your blanket statements are extremely prejudicial. "Liberals hate America" sounds like you eat right-wing spin machine talking points for breakfast. "Islamic nuts" isn't necessarily redundant, anymore than hateful Christians is. I prefer to consider liberals, Christians, Islamics, Republicans, etc., on a case-by-case basis. I admit - it is SO much easier to just regard an entire population of people (eg liberals) as hateful or a handful of other adjectives. Ignorance is bliss. Thinking involves work. Knowing that there are so many variances in individuals is simply too much for some people to process, so they lump the whole kit n kaboodle into one or two blanket statements. To such a person, it would seem like a paradox to hate something about a person, or to hate their actions, while considering their right to exercise their own behavior. It would seem like a paradox to defend your right to free speech while vehemently disagreeing with what you say. I can see how liberals, who have a greater tendency to view and understand the multifaceted sides of complex issues, could seem paradoxical to someone who prefers simple, uncomplicated labels and sweeping prejudices.

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving everyone. I love America.

DONT FEED THE TROLLS !!!!!!!

Certainly not like America where the separation of Church and State is... Oh, nevermind.

> Liberals hate America

More ignorance...that kind of statement is unamerican, anti-christian, anti-human, and an outright lie. Propaganda on par with Nazi Germany.

You ARE the manifestation of all the things you claim to stand up against.

>>Knowing that there are so many variances in individuals is simply too much for some people to process, so they lump the whole kit n kaboodle into one or two blanket statements.

kind of like saying "How could 59 Million people be so dumb?"

Exactly like that...I agree, that too is a bullshit statement.

"All is one, one is none, none is all."
-Zen Algorithm

>>>>I admit - it is SO much easier to just regard an entire population of people (eg liberals) as hateful or a handful of other adjectives. Ignorance is bliss. Thinking involves work. Knowing that there are so many variances in individuals is simply too much for some people to process, so they lump the whole kit n kaboodle into one or two blanket statements. <<<<<<

BINGO!

There is no black and white, only shades of grey.

Just Another Dead Head:

As for me, I'm a man with a plan...getting the requisite visas ready.
But I won't leave untill I've stuck it to the ass-sucking shitheads that hijacked this country and are selling it to raise money for Jesus.

I pitty the fool who believes in a god, but I leave them to their own devices. One would wish they would do the same, but they are invested in foisting their beliefs on everyone else.

CK Autotomorrow:

You don't have to be smart to have faith in God....a.k.a.. If you can't count, you can count on Jesus...maybe the only school of thought in some of those 'dumb' states... ( Religion definately parallels stupidity )

MattyK:

unfortunatly the majority of middle America are clueless!!!!

Mike (StStephenEleven)
american people do not know whats good for them, and as I have said b4 the conservatives know this all to well and surely know how to Capitalize on it. You can maybe say were so used to getting less than we deserve we have accepted it. Don't be mad at the english cos they are better informed and educated on the whole, and they actually have a press that works for the people by and large and is not filtered through whatever corrupt adm may be in power.

Smilin Bill:
I hate the christian right wing nutters but I would never even think about trying to tell them they shouldnt practice.

rich pankanin:
Sheep, sheep, sheep. Is it true, can it be so? Is bush really little bo peep?
Just ask the mid west section of our country. They will tell you.

kind of like saying "How could 59 Million people be so dumb?"
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A blanket statement would've been to lump ALL Americans together as dumb, rather than singling out those who really are, ie, Bush supporters.

Seriously, I'm kidding about that. I know some very dumb Kerry supporters and very smart Bush supporters. I wonder if you are suggesting that The Mirror is a bunch of liberals making a blanket statement about Bush supporters. In that article, certainly. But they publish a variety of viewpoints. Certainly not something Fox News does. And they don't pull any punches. Certainly nothing our media does. One reason people were shocked and outraged at that cover is because we have become so used to having our "information" watered down and distilled to us. We're not informed, we're marketed. God forbid Bush is criticized by our own namby pamby media. The few exceptions are constantly, relentlessly touted as "the liberal media." I think that amounts to two major newspapers at this point.

dude, the daily mirror is a British paper. remember the british? ally numero uno in our coalition of the willing.

lefty whackos right wing nuts what the difference

both parties have em and both are reactionary and idealistic. but you cant blame the majority of either party for what the fringe beleivers do/say.

>>I bet you are pro life but dont want to make sure all children have life insurance

Yo Brah~

NO children need life insurance, maybe health insurance but not life insurance.

This is why so many are moving to Canada...
they can't take the authoritarian and anti-social policies of the radical right wing Bush administration. I, for one, am staying, because I still believe in Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. I still believe in racial and religious cohesiveness, a woman's right to choose, medicare for all, social justice, and every other personal freedom that republicans would deny us.

I hate tyrannical regimes like that of Hussein & Kim Jong Il - but unlike the right I include the Saudi Royals to this list. It's OK though, only 4 more years...just like the 80s....

>>I still believe in racial and religious cohesiveness

how have conservatives opposed this? This is unfounded and baseless.

>>medicare for all

Way to go Hillary you get an A for effort!

>>but unlike the right I include the Saudi Royals to this list.

I guess no democratic president has ever had a relationship with the Saudis? Where would we be if we started harshly criticizing them? Do you like driving your car? How much are you willing to pay for a gallon of gas? If they cut us off the price would go through the roof.

>>>>I still believe in racial and religious cohesiveness

how have conservatives opposed this? This is unfounded and baseless.

Sure, as long as it's the conservative's view on racial & religious cohesiveness, they don't have a problem with it. But if you offer a differing opinion, well you're just plain unpatriotic.


>>If they cut us off the price would go through the roof

So we allow them to continue to train terrorists to come attack us just so we can have cheap gas to drive these motherfucking SUV's that hardly anyone really needs? We continue to let them school their children in the ways of hatred towards the US all in the name of $1.50/gallon gas?

And I don't see a damn thing wrong with providing health care for ANYONE that needs it. In my mind, that goes along with the Christian value of "caring & helping your brother/sister". We have the resources, why not utilize them.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

>>racial & religious cohesiveness

How have conservatives tried to oppose these? If anything it is liberals who are intolerant of religion. They try to to rewrite history to hide the fact that the founding fathers were Christian and often spoke of God. Now we've got these liberal judges trying to eliminate the pledge of allegiance because of the phrase one nation under God, seems pretty unpatriotic and irrational to me. At the same time schools in California feel its important to teach students about the Islamic culture. Liberals make no sense.

>>>>>> How have conservatives tried to oppose these?

If you are not "saved" (ie, accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, yata yata) you are going to HELL, even if you are otherwise religious and live a good life. It's all about "Our religion is the only true religion and everyone else is inferior." That belief system is completely bigoted and intolerant. The fact that this country is being run by people who believe this enthusiastically SCARES THE LIVING CRAP OUTTA ME!!!!!

>>medicare for all
Way to go Hillary you get an A for effort!
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The Clintons' attempt at healthcare reform was a disaster -- but at least it was AN ATTEMPT. It is easier to skewer them for their screams about reform -- screams which were shouted down by the much-more powerful and well-funded insurance industry -- than it is to skewer the Bush administration for not so much as whispering about it.

In fact, after he's done his stint, we'll have a combined 20 years of Reagan/Bush/Bush administration. And how is our healthcare holding up? That’s right. The insurance industry has never been healthier.

As far as gas prices go… what do you mean, gas prices WILL go through the roof? Do you even remember what they were before an oil businessman with an energy CEO of a VP and a family friend named “Bandar Bush” took office? And why IS that the issue in any case?

I don't think 59 million plus people are so dumb. Lazy and greedy, perhaps. The fact that gas prices are so high up on the priority list, so very far above sacrifice, speaks volumes about this country and its mentality. The fact that Kerry and Bush both made such a stink about not raising taxes when we are a country AT WAR -- speaks volumes about this country. Kerry and Bush made it an issue because that’s what people wanted to hear. One person even demanded Kerry speak right into the microphone and swear NO NEW TAXES. Another wanted Bush to do the same regarding a draft. God FORBID we should have a few bucks out of our check. GOD FORBID we should be asked to fight for our country.

No one has been asked to sacrifice save for the soldiers in Iraq, and no one will volunteer anything they don't absolutely have to. God FORBID we should pay more for gas. God FORBID we have a tax increase. Screw the deficit and its lasting scars on our economy, which is headed for the biggest disaster since 1929. Screw our kids and their kids, who will be paying for this. Screw the soldiers and their lack of body armor.

>>Where would we be if we started harshly criticizing them?

God yes, let's not criticize the Saudis, especially when we can pick on the Iraqis and get away with it. America has become the guy who takes abuse from his boss but kisses his ass...then goes home and beats his wife. In this case, the boss is the Saudis and the Iraqis get to play the coveted role of the beaten wife. Where would we be if we started harshly criticizing them? I don't know... fighting the war we should've been fighting since 9/11? Regaining our self-respect? Beginning a true healing process for the nation and especially the victims and victims' families of 9/11? Oh yeah, and really making an effort to develop other sources of energy so we're not so dependent on our enemies?

Americans want what they want when they want it. Just don’t ask them to make any effort or sacrifice towards it. There, how is that for a generalization?

>>If you are not "saved" (ie, accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, yata yata) you are going to HELL, even if you are otherwise religious and live a good life. It's all about "Our religion is the only true religion and everyone else is inferior." That belief system is completely bigoted and intolerant. The fact that this country is being run by people who believe this enthusiastically SCARES THE LIVING CRAP OUTTA ME!!!!!

That is a paranoid exageration.

>>I don't think 59 million plus people are so dumb. Lazy and greedy, perhaps. The fact that gas prices are so high up on the priority list, so very far above sacrifice, speaks volumes about this country and its mentality. The fact that Kerry and Bush both made such a stink about not raising taxes when we are a country AT WAR -- speaks volumes about this country. Kerry and Bush made it an issue because that’s what people wanted to hear. One person even demanded Kerry speak right into the microphone and swear NO NEW TAXES. Another wanted Bush to do the same regarding a draft. God FORBID we should have a few bucks out of our check. GOD FORBID we should be asked to fight for our country.


Sounds like you can afford to pay more. try persuading the average joe that higher taxes and higher gas prices will make us all better off.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=40654&ak=null

You want to see some people who take religion to extremes than watch this video.

try persuading the average joe that higher taxes and higher gas prices will make us all better off.
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That would be a very poor way to persuade anyone of anything, and is bass ackwards. The result of making sacrifices may be many -- including the negative effect of higher taxes. I did not say that higher taxes per se would make us better off. That is like saying "the world is better off with Saddam Hussein in power" - when what Kerry actually said was that he thought invading Iraq was a mistake. The Republican spin machine twisted *that* one around. Oh, the twisting just goes on and on. However, for the record, I think a draft would totally suck, if for no other reason than at this point we are NOT defending our country. Invading Iraq was on the agenda long before 9/11; 9/11 was the justification for it; they never attacked us; someone else did and they remain unpunished; our borders are unattended; our cities are not capable of dealing with an attack; our police and fire departments are underfunded. The attack took place here, in the United States, but the war is taking place there, in Iraq. Our military and our money is over there. We are left here, sadly vulnerable. So sending more young men and women into Bush's personal meat grinder is not my ideal. And for that matter, tax cuts to fund that maniac's personal spending spree aren't really my thing either. But it's the principle of the thing. I would be glad to make sacrifices for a country that is worthy of it, would be glad to make sacrifices to a leader who inspires, who motivates, who engenders trust and patriotism, a leader who deserves my respect, and my loyalty. Not blind loyalty.

>>when what Kerry actually said was that he thought invading Iraq was a mistake. The Republican spin machine twisted *that* one around.

That is hilarious Kerry was the master of spin. What Kerry said and did are two different things. He voted for the war and then spoke out against it for political gain. He is an oportunistic weasel.

>>a leader who deserves my respect, and my loyalty. Not blind loyalty.

59 million people are blindly loyal to Bush?

>>59 million people are blindly loyal to Bush?

No, I agree with the Mirror's assessment:

How can 59 million people be so dumb? I'm really beginning to think there was some election stealing going on again. There is just so much anti-Bush sentiment out there & so many people opposed to his foreign "policies", I don't see how he could have won.


On the flip side, I could see why middle of the road voters would tend to choose Shrub over Kerry, especially if they watched the NYC protestors during the RNC. The protestors didn't bother me, but with all the overt sexuality & profanity & obscene gestures shown all over CSPAN, I could understand how "normal" folks could be mortified with the Dems.

>>Will you lefties ever make any sense?<<

Of course we make sense. Just turn off the Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, Ingram, Will, Dobson, and Larson, Coulter, and every other right wing talk radio host, and things will start to fall into place.

So what's really going on? While partisans aimlessly argue over left-right crap the Republican Party has erupted into a factional fight over the 9/11 Intelligence Reform Bill. The new congress hasn't even taken over yet and the Republican tent is already getting so crowded people are pushing and shoving. Let's face it, most in congress care more about pork subsidies or federal milk marketing orders than what party they're from.

>>How can 59 million people be so dumb? I'm really beginning to think there was some election stealing going on again. There is just so much anti-Bush sentiment out there & so many people opposed to his foreign "policies", I don't see how he could have won.

This is exactly the mentality that I have been talking about. Thanks for being honest. Come on though Bush didn't steal the election he won it fair and and square, even Michael Moore admitted that on Leno. To say that he stole the election is just being delusional.

Not exactly. I'm not saying this because Kerry lost. There are circumstances surrounding certain voting "irregularities" if you will, that make me extremely suspicious of the results. To have the owner/ceo of the manufacturer of many of the voting machines publicly declare that he would deliver OH to Shrub, and to have so many "problems" in OH surrounding the election results, just seems too coincidental to me.

The fact that I consider Shrub the biggest piece of walking shit in the world doesn't even enter into the equation.

I mean, everything this guy has done has been a disaster. how can you seriously support this man?

Dear Johnny 5,

1 Socialized medicine is a good thing. As a wealthy and free nation we can and should allow every citizen to live a long healthy life. There is no reason to slander a former first lady for trying to make this a reality as it is in the UK, Canada, and the country you love the most, France.

2 The right wing of this country is against the freedom of religion. You proved this by stating that 'under G-d' must be a part of pledge of allegiance. Sometimes people don't believe in G-d and it is not our government's job to make them believe in G-d or to define G-d at all, that is a basic human right.

3 Republicans do not promote racial cohesiveness, they promote segregated schooling through their voucher system and seek to underfund public schools. Racial minorities predominantly attend these public schools and are once again the victim of racial politics.

4 We need to stand up to the Saudis. Whether you like it or not, their philosophies are the catalyst for violent Islamic fundamentalist movements. They preach hatred, castagate women, and discriminate against any form religion but their own. We all know they have alot of oil, but the technology for economically safe fuels is in our grasp, we just lack the leadership to get us there. Even if we just stopped buying oil from the Saudis it would be a good thing, there are a plethora of excellent oil merchants in the world, in fact Russia is the world's largest distributor of Crude. But W doesn't have an investment in Russian oil, does he? His Dad dines with the Saudi royals all the time and on the taxpayer's dime.

Johnny5 do you seriously think Bush is in it for you? He ain't buddy, he's just another fat cat. And in four years, thanks to the enourmous deficits, oceans of American poor, thinly spread American armed forces, vanishing civil rights, and a world reputation that rivals the worst of the history's worst dictators, the Democrats are gonna whoop some GOP ass. And I'm gonna be one happy hippie.


PEACE NOW!