Philzone.org Discussion Board: Archive 2004: Politics Archive 2004: Neanderthals love Bushie...

http://www.villagevoice.com/sutton/

funny.

but that is IN PART why we lost the election. That type of look-down-our-nose attitude is not gonna help the cause... it's cartoons like this that the Limbaughs of the world use as ammo against us.

We need to reach out and inform the large swath of Red State'ers that they've been voting against their better interests - the cartoon does this, but we need to do it without the nasty elitism.

Moreover, we need to trumpet our moral values and show them that we have more in common than we have differences.

But, still, it raises some very good points... but we gotta get them (them being rural Americans) on our side - whether it be in Indiana and Ohio, the South, or the West. Or we will lose and lose again.

do you really want them on our side?
because then we'd be on their side.

there are no sides

fuck up the death machine

>>do you really want them on our side?
because then we'd be on their side.

This isn't about "sides". All freedom loving Americans have a stake in restraining the abuses of government. The hard battle is making common cause with those with different worldviews. In a democracy, you have to win over 51%, and in reality it is often much more. Unless we want another civil war here we need to develop some tolerance.

>>Unless we want another civil war here we need to develop some tolerance.


I agree, but it's kind of hard to show tolerance to 51% of the country that is eagerly working to bring about Armageddon, reducing civil liberties, and bringing back good ol' fashioned "hate crimes".

John Birch,KKK, "NeoCons", it's all the same.

>>>Moreover, we need to trumpet our moral values and show them that we have more in common than we have differences.

>>>This isn't about "sides". All freedom loving Americans have a stake in restraining the abuses of government. The hard battle is making common cause with those with different worldviews. In a democracy, you have to win over 51%, and in reality it is often much more. Unless we want another civil war here we need to develop some tolerance.

I would like to say that I find these remarks highly refreshing and agree wholeheartedly despite my ironic screen name. I have found, at least from my admittedly right of center perpsective, that most Americans agree on more than they care to acknowledge. Both sides of the proverbial fence could take civility lessons to heart. It's very important to remember people can have honest disagreements without the other side being Hitler or the Great Satan.

Ive only been on this MB sporadically and have already been misunderstood and lambasted, even by Jeff, but I still love "y'all" and its nice to hear someone echo my feelings on the subject

>>> I agree, but it's kind of hard to show tolerance to 51% of the country that is eagerly working to bring about Armageddon, reducing civil liberties, and bringing back good ol' fashioned "hate crimes". <<<

Hillman, the rub is the 51% DONT really want to bring the things you mention above. The majority of the country is pro-choice, most favor civil unions, most favor environmental protection, most favor worker protection, most favor entitlement programs for the poor. Yes, even in Reder than Red Indiana, most people that I know - even the Bushies - favor these things.

Then why do they vote against their better interests?

Because people vote their identity and not their issues. Bush won because the GOP has worked for 40 years at framing the issues in their favor.

Dems have lost because we dont have a good media machine, we dont have a united front, and we havent framed OUR arguements in the right way.

The Evangelical Right gets a lot of play because they are united and very vocal - but that's not the majority of the country. But the majority of the Red State'ers have been sold a bullshit bill of fare... and they lap it up. Not because they are stupid, but because they identify with the Right because the Right has done a masterful job of framing the issues.

Take the "morals" issue. The Right frames it in terms of gay rights and abortion (and other cultural issues). The Proggresive Christians, if they got their act together, should trumpet social justice - the poor, the ill, the hungry. We need a little religous self-rightousness on the Left to counter that on the Right.

The Evangelical Right could give fuck about social justice -- and therefore most voters with deep Christian beliefs dont even think about it.

Its high time that they did.

For further reading - PLEASE - check out:

Dont Think Of An Elephant (great book on how well the GOP has done framing the issues, and how poorly the Left has done).

What's The Matter With Kansas (brilliant book on why so many Red State'ers KEEP ON voting against their better interests).

That NY fish wrap really should not be given much credence in any sort of intelligent discussion of...well, anything. That sort of sanctimonious crap is part of what galvanized the right against the leftist elite.