Philzone.org Discussion Board: Archive 2004: Politics Archive 2004: From Iraq

So...

A good friend of mine just got back from Iraq, and will be my new room mate in another week or so. He was in one of the first assaults on Fallujah a while back, and I've learned some interesting things from our conversations.

Probably the most interesting is that each U.S. soldier is allowed to kill 30 innocent Iraqis before they get in trouble. I've also learned that no one really counts them all, so really, what need for a limit? In the assault on Fallujah he was in, he told me about how there was no discrimination about who was killed an who wasn't. Anyone from women and children all the way up to gun toting militant was shot on sight. The way he put it to me was that there were bodies everywhere.

But its all in the name of bringing democracy there, so its okay...

Thanks for the info, but now I'm sick to my stomach.

America...

Where have you gone?

JBH

Isn't great how this supposed religous minded ruler of ours commits every great sin to acheive the money they are so obsessed with ?

There will be an eon of torture for this crew in hell

"We are winning the hearts and minds of the people of Vietnam . . . ummmm . . . I mean IRAQ . . . yes . . . IRAQ"

GWBush and Rummy need to be tried as war criminals in the Hague.

Even if the post above is exagerated or not true, it's amazing how so many Americans are so dumb and gullible to believe that it was OK for Bush to go to war. Bush knew that the threat was not imminent and knew these type of casualties do happen in any war. These type of civilian killings do not suprise me, it's the dirty part of war that many people don't know about. Americans are so dumb for electing Bush in this election. The American people have embarrassed themselves to the world in this election. And Americans are the fattest too! Fat and dumb! You've embarrassed yourselves to the world America! You ought to be ashamed, you dumb fatsos. Didn't you learn your lesson in Vietnam?

Not exagerated. Just reporting what the man told me. He's just starting to re-adjust to normal life now, and I'm sure as time goes on I'll learn more about whats going on over there.

>>America...

Where have you gone?


ExxonMobil
GlaxoSmithKline
Carlyle Group
Halliburton
Insurance companies

you get the drift.............

i dont believe you or him

My friend who knows a guy, that used to sleep with this chick.. who is cousins with a dude from jersey, that once met a bloke from London.. that knows this guy from atlanta who is brothers with a navy guy who knows someone in the army says their allowed to kill who ever they want .. even babies.. they kill babies all the time.. damn baby killers..

>>i dont believe you or him

Because you don't want to believe it? Seems like a dude with firsthand info is far more credible than ANY of us here in the states.

I'd like more evidence, too, but I hope it's a lie, although I'm afraid it's not...

And Pat, it's not a fifthhand story. It's a firsthand tale, that's far different.

JBH

I know a guy who was a ranger and served in the first Gulf war. One story he told was being stationed on a road out of a town and every car that came down the road was destroyed. After the initial hit, they had to approach the vehicle and finish off killing any survivors.

This shit happens.

Oh no! Not America! It couldn't happen here! It must be a lie...

Wait a minute...remember Vietnam? This shit happened then too. Old habits die hard.

Just like German civillians didn't believe the Holocaust was really occuring.

Like I said, I'm just reporting what the guy told me. I've known the guy for 10 years, since I was in the 7th grade, and he's never given me any reason not to trust him.

As far as providing substantial evidence on this board, well, it is the internet and my options are pretty limited.

Just like German civillians didn't believe the Holocaust was really occuring.



Your seriously comparing collateral damage in war to the holocaust..

"Wait a minute...remember Vietnam? This shit happened then too."

That stuff never happened it's the anti war movement who made it up and it stuck now they teach it in schools. This guy i work with told me this he just got out of collage he went one of those religious school. He also says people who smoke pot are have no brain cells and are dumb. He aslo said he wouldnt mind going to a min security prison because it like a hotel they get cable and stuff like that. The only thing i could do was laugh at him.

Some people are just nuts, yes he did vote for bush

You are full of shit.

"Your seriously comparing collateral damage in war to the holocaust.."

Whats the difference? It all comes down to the fact that innocent people are dieing for no reason. Just because you give it a different name doesn't make it so. The death of one child is no more acceptable than the death of any other.

And really, I was just trying to make a point that people will turn a blind eye to even the worst atrocities, thinking that it could never happen, or that their country would never do such a thing.

You are full of shit.


Who is?

>dieing
Yikes, this is one of the worst ones yet.
Three vowels in a row.
Minus 75.

"Yikes, this is one of the worst ones yet."

I was in a hurry.

Right now, there is currently a photo of a dead girl with her father? in a street in Fallujah on Michael Moore's website:http://michaelmoore.com/

The photo will probably be gone by tommorow morning since the site is constantly changing.

>>Your seriously comparing collateral damage in war to the holocaust..

No, Pat, he's clearly comparing the public's disbelief between both eras, nothing more.

>>
>dieing
Yikes, this is one of the worst ones yet.
Three vowels in a row.
Minus 75.

And Bob, why not contribute something substantial...

JBH

Right now, there is currently a photo of a dead girl with her father? in a street in Fallujah on Michael Moore's website


Dude thats a fake photo. just kidding but i bet there ARE alot of people out there who think that. This is war i guess this is what America wants I bet things would be driffrent if it were here. I know Sadam was bad but everyone knew that, now the people hate us just like they did Sadam. I saw a poll that says most people in Iraq think this is about oil and their right. Our goverment was counting on oil profits to pay for the war an to pay the debt.

Whats the difference?


Uhhh intent.

No, Pat, he's clearly comparing the public's disbelief between both eras, nothing more.



Even if he is comparing disbelief of two eras.. its still wrong. For instance, the German people during wwii didnt have disbelief.. they outright lied. They knew what was going on. Most of the German population was tacitly involved in the execution of the Jews. Saying there is disbelief implys there is some sort of innocence behind the thought..

I still stand by my claim that both eras are incomparable.

LALALALALALALALALALALALAL (I can't hear you!)

[Cryp5 in denial]

Patrick,

A large portion of the German population didn't believe the Jews were being sent to death camps. They were told that the Jews were being 'deported' and thats what they believed. Hitler knew that while he was able to rouse a movement against the Jewish people in Germany, the majority of the population would never accept what his "final solution" would ultimately turn into. That being the case, he didn't exactly publicize what was going on. Thats not to say that no portion of German society knew what was really going on, but from what I understand those folks that knew lived in the vicinities of the concentration camps.

And whatever you say about the comparison I make, the death of one child is no more justified over the death of any other, no matter who is doing the killing and no matter what cause the killing is for. To me, the Americans that are over there harming innocent people are just as guilty as Hitler.

It's war, get over it.

Larry, by that logic the attacks on the WTC were perfectly acceptable because "it's war."

Gross. I hope other students in your school are far more humane.

JBh

"It's war, get over it."

Okay. I'm perfectly well adjusted to it now. I've now come to terms with the fact that everything thats going on in Iraq is okay, thats just the way it is. Thanks for your help. I'm going to go urinate on some anti-war liberals now....

Its that attitude that makes the world a stagnant stink-hole of unnecessary violence, by the way. Good job.

The Halocaust and the killing of innocent people in Iraq (as described in this thread) are both examples of needless death. They are both examples of one people compromising the rights of others for thier own objectives.

A large portion of the German population didn't believe the Jews were being sent to death camps. They were told that the Jews were being 'deported' and thats what they believed. Hitler knew that while he was able to rouse a movement against the Jewish people in Germany, the majority of the population would never accept what his "final solution" would ultimately turn into. That being the case, he didn't exactly publicize what was going on. Thats not to say that no portion of German society knew what was really going on, but from what I understand those folks that knew lived in the vicinities of the concentration camps.



I stand by my claim that the Holocaust was an effort on almost every level of German society. It was not disbelief, it was denial of what their own countrymen had done. Just look at organizations like the reserve police battalions they employed during their juden hunts. What could any sane German think by the idea of lebensraum.
We know that the holocauast was a systematic, deliberate effort to exterminate "undesirable" people from Germany.
Any comparison to our troops and the einsatzgruppen, or Bush to hitler, ignores factual and historical data, not to mention sanity.

>>> Any comparison to our troops and the einsatzgruppen, or Bush to hitler, ignores factual and historical data, not to mention sanity. <<<

Fact.

Look, all this shit sickens the hell outta me. But I, for one, refuse to place any blame on the soldiers. If I was in Fallujah, and my mates were being shot by snipers, Id have a quick trigger finger at any movement.

If some of my friends were blown apart by IEDs and/or shot and killed - Im SURE Im not above craving blood lust, just or unjust.

These are (mostly) teen-agers. Mostly poor teenagers without much education or life experience. You put young kids in a dangerous envirnoment, whoop them up with machismo, and have them get shot at - YOU ARE GONNA SEE BAD SHIT HAPPEN.

Same as its been since "war" began.

Now........

I blame the ever living FUCK outta this Administration and all Bush supporters for ALL the deaths that have come as a result of our little War of Choice.

This is an unjust war, therefore, all actions after are also unjust. ALL the blood is on Bush's hands.

Tis true, the American people (as a whole) are not getting or searching out the "human cost" of this war. True enough, many Americans dont believe that we've killed that many innocents (and the rest believe they arenet really THAT innocent to begin with).

That's all thanks to the masterful job of spin put out by the Govt and enabled by the media.

Also,
if you supported this war - you owe it to the soldiers and the innocents in Iraq to put on a brave face and SEE WHAT THE FUCK YOU HAVE VALIDATED.

For the sake of dignity, you should WANT to know the human cost of war. We owe the dead and wounded that much, no?

If it's a just war, you'll be ok. Only in an unjust war will the demons of shame keep you up at night.

You support Bush, you support this war. You support Bush, you have validated EVERYTHING that was done prior to 11/2.

Bad shit happens in a war. Duh. But only in an unjust (and needless) war does the unfortunate become the unforgivable.

Jeff wrote

>>>If it's a just war, you'll be ok. Only in an unjust war will the demons of shame keep you up at night.

You support Bush, you support this war. You support Bush, you have validated EVERYTHING that was done prior to 11/2.

Bad shit happens in a war. Duh. But only in an unjust (and needless) war does the unfortunate become the unforgivable.<<<

Very well put, I love yer prose.

The refusal to tally the Iraqi victims is tragic.
It suggests that their lives and loved ones are insignificant.

not buying this at all

Ned . . . your categorizations show the kind of shallow perspective that make your comfortable sweeping statements disturbing . . .

Just wondering - the US military and puppet Prime Minister Allawi are saying, officially, that there are as of yet no civilian casualties in Fallujah. An offensive statement to say the least. Who believes this? Do people really believe this? Tragic indeed that humanitarian disaster is blanketed, history that never happened...

>>not buying this at all

OK, Archie Bunker.

Any particular reason?

JBH

"Any comparison to our troops and the einsatzgruppen, or Bush to hitler, ignores factual and historical data, not to mention sanity."

As I've stated above, the death of one child is no more justifiable than the death of any other. While historically what the Nazis did in Germany and what we're doing in Iraq are different in many ways, they are morally comparable. Any war is morally comparable to any other war, as all participants in any war have a moral deficiency, no matter what the war. I have yet to come across an innocent party in any conflict I've studied.

Try these two articles for a not-so-pro-american take:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1115-08.htm

which quotes in part:

"It is not an opinion the Iraqi government wants the world to hear. Baghdad warned journalists last week to endorse the position that the operation has been an overwhelming success or face legal action."


Smells Hussein-like to me. Allawi might also equal "The Iraqi Foreign Information Minister" for credibility.


And:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1115-07.htm

" ”The Americans didn't care about us,” said a young refugee who gave his name only as Ahmed. He arrived in Baghdad with most of his family three days back. ”All the medical people left the city and the only people in the city are Fallujans or from Ramadi or other cities who came to try to help us.”

People in Fallujah had been left helpless, he said. ”Anyone who left their house would either be shot by American snipers or recruited by the Mujahideen,” he said. ”So we stayed inside most of the time and prayed. The more the bombs exploded the more we prayed and cried.”

Ahmed says he did not expect to survive. ”Every night we said goodbye to one another because we expected to die,” he said. ”You could see areas where all the houses were flattened, there was just nothing left. We could get water at times, but there was no electricity ever.”

U.S. forces had bombed families in their homes, he said. ”Even those of us who do not fight, we are suffering so much because of the U.S. bombs and tanks. Can't they see this is turning so many people against them?”

Iraqi resistance has taken control of many cities across Iraq following the U.S. siege of Fallujah. Despite U.S. military claims of being in control of Mosul in the north, al-Jazeera reported that the U.S. military, Iraqi police and National Guardsmen have disappeared from the streets and armed men wearing masks are wandering freely around. "

Going just as planned.........

yes.
I think if each soldier was " allowed" to kill 30 people no questions asked
a) you would have heard about it
b) you would have seen some of it ( like last nights viddy )
c) 30 a piece? shit- we'd bo out of there by now.

Next Question.

Brick, I don't think each soldier is TOLD to kill 30 civilians, but if it happens they're given a limit of 30 before someone gets in trouble for being "careless."

But I'm not there, and folks are corrrect to assume nothing until proven positive.

JBH

The 30 people a piece thing is on the Terms of Engagement Card or whatever its called. You wouldn't hear about it because the information coming out of Iraq through the media is controlled. They gov realizes their mistake in Vietnam for allowing the media to cover the atrocities of war, and won't let it happen again.

Consider also: All males in Fallujah between 15 and 55 were considered "non civilians" - IOW, they were not allowed to leave Fallujah during the pre invasion evacuations. What percentage of the 300,000 person population do you suppose fit into this category? How many women and children stayed with non-insurgent men because they could not leave? I understand that one cannot tell who the insurgents really are within the otherwise "neutral" men in the population, but this clearly allows one to understand why we cannot - and will not - win "the hearts and minds" of these people.

This war is LOST.

Stranger~ what are you talking about? they had video on MSNBC last night ( HardBall ) of a soldier shooting an unarmed Iraqi in a mosque...

its BIG news- to suggest its happening whoesale and we arent hearing about it is questionable

If I was there- i'd shoot anything that moved. Thank God I'm not there.

I dont support this war but I'll be damned if I dont support the troops.
these guys are in some serious shit over there.

"its BIG news- to suggest its happening whoesale and we arent hearing about it is questionable"


I dispute that. War is as much about information control as it is anything about the battlefield.

I'm not saying the above posted articles are the complete truth, but when it comes to US media, you are getting a very limited story. Little by little, more info gets out. Often, one cannot see the validity of such viewpoints until much later......but it is clear to many that what we get on da boob toob is far from the full story.

It is my opinion that this shooting is a big story because it "got out". That's the danger of imbedded reporting - sometimes you (the viewer) see more than you are supposed to.

We will all know much more about this in time. However, at this point, our only choice is to consider as much information as possible. From my point of view, the evidence does not, and has not looked good, and the so called "alternative" sources have been much more revealing - and correct - than many realize. As far as I'm concerned, the US megamedia has mucho egg on thier collective faces. That should also be exposed in time.

As far as supporting the troops - they are doing the best that they can in a bad situation. Let's hope they get out alive - and soon (both, at this point, like wishing in one hand and shitting in the other). But it's the best I can do.

I agree , Dave.
well stated

>>I dont support this war but I'll be damned if I dont support the troops.

You support them regardless of their actions?

I'll bet there was a "support our SS" movement in Germany, too. Just because someone wears a uniform it doesn't make all their actions beyond scrutiny.

Do you disagree??

JBH

define regardless of their actions....

you go frolic an detour and abduct someone and just freakin kill them- I have a problem with that.

you shoot someone you feel is an immediate threat to you or yours, sorry....not gonna hang them if they turn out to be wrong


rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

>>>>>I dont support this war but I'll be damned if I dont support the troops.

"supporting the troops" is an undefineable term these days. To me it means extend respect to those willing to be involved irregardless of the fact that they are on a fools mission.

To folks with the stickers on thier car, "support the troops" is a veiled expression of supporting the war and holding republican values.

I am further angry that displaying our nations flag has been highjacked by these folks in the same way.

As for the troops, I want to support them but I cannot condone the actions of macho agressive types.

What am I talking about? This is what I'm talking about:

http://www.stripesonline.com/article.asp?section=104&article=13834&archive=true

Its the same thing I've been getting first hand accounts on from my room mate who was there.

I'm also currently in a graduate course of media theory and how the media influences and is influenced by society. One of the subjects touched upon in the text book is the governments control of media coverage of the First Gulf War. If it happened then, you can bet your ass its happening now.

Just as a quick for instance, its illegal to take photos of the bodies of soldiers returning home, if I'm not mistaken.

Jralmasi, wonderin if you had a chance to read this article posted earlier this week?

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/oo/curmudgeon/index_curmudgeon.html

Im with Brick on this one, dont know why, but Im calling Bullshit on the 30 Kills Rule.

Dont know why, just smells fishy like any ole e-mail "hey look at this" fungus.

That said, I stand by my opinion that Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should be brought up on War Crimes (or at the very least, Bush impeached for misleading Congress).

Course singing monkeys might fly outta my ass and do the can-can, never can tell.

cachesoul,

Just skimmed it. Seems interesting. I'll take the time to read it on my lunch break. Thanks.

As far as those that don't believe the 30 kills rule, only history will be able to prove what I'm saying, unless of course some media outlet get a hold of a Rules of Engagement card and reports on it.

support= show respect

thats all I'm saying.

thanks for breaking it down for me

Did anyone hear how the Iraqi soldiers or whatever you want to call them nuts, have been acting like their dead and when our Troops come to them they get up and open fire?
It is War and we over here don't really know what our Troops are going through. I also think the 30 kills is highly unlikely.

i am totally against this administration and this war

however i find it inconceivable that that would be allowed. especially with "embedded" reporters egar to make a "Scoop"

The 30 kills rule is more believable than the WMD-Hussein-Bin Laden-911 hogwash they tried to cram down our throats. Lots of poeple ate that shit right up. Lots of sheeple still eatin it up.

>>> support= show respect <<<

This is a toughie. Respect is to be earned, not given out willy-nilly. Like, I had respect for Colin Powell, he had earned it with his service in the Army.

Then, through his being rolled over by the WH and Rummy, through his dishonest performance before the UN -- Ive lost any and all respect for the man.

The troops deserve our, respect perhaps - but sympathy is more like it. No doubt thousands of them have acted with honor and do deserve our respect. But Im not one to throw a ribbon magnent on my car and support the whole bag.

I sure as shit dont respect the abusers at Abu Gharib and Git-Mo. I dont respect those who dont uphold the rules of war.

Besides, "supporting the troops" is tough when you totally dont support what the troops are doing. Is it the soldiers fault? No. But that's the way it goes. I dont blame them - but I also dont have to support what they are doing. And often, in these times, to "support the troops" can be seen as "support the war". That, I shall never do.

So, in the end, do I support them? I dont know. I wish them all safe passage and I pray they come home safe... but they've been tainted by the orders they've been given. And it's very hard for me to seperate the two.

Fuck me, I just detest the Chicken Hawks that put them in this mess so very badly that the waters are getting mighty murky... I really dont know how I feel about "the troops".

(sigh)

I dont think the 30 kills thing is policy, but it might be an unspoken/understood tolerance evolving among some of the ranks. Could be some truth to it. Only time and soldiers will tell.

>>>Respect is to be earned, not given out willy-nilly.

Respect is basic... then there are the higher levels that are earned.

"I dont think the 30 kills thing is policy, but it might be an unspoken/understood tolerance evolving among some of the ranks. Could be some truth to it. Only time and soldiers will tell."


Its policy. Its on the Rules of Engagement Card that the soldiers recieve.

"Did anyone hear how the Iraqi soldiers or whatever you want to call them nuts, have been acting like their dead and when our Troops come to them they get up and open fire?"

Then perhaps we shouldn't have invaded in the first place, hmmmm?

>>>>"Did anyone hear how the Iraqi soldiers or whatever you want to call them nuts, have been acting like their dead and when our Troops come to them they get up and open fire?"

Please be clear...Iraqi Soldiers are not playing possum and throwing grenades at US soldiers, they fight side by side...it is the terrorists who play the dirty tricks.

..yes...be clear. it's the bad iraqis who are bad. the good iraqis are good.

this is so fuckin' simple, how the hell can't you keep this straight?

>>> Its policy. Its on the Rules of Engagement Card that the soldiers recieve. <<<

I am 100% calling bullshit on that one.

ayup

Produce The Card


Name ( rank and serial # ) Sources !

Can't. He burned the card along with other papers of his that was classified material right after he got out. I'm just reporting what he told me, and I trust him 100%.

And I just don't go out giving peoples names and personal information like rank and serial # over the internet.

Gee I wonder where the cliche "War is Hell" comes from....


Or how many non military people have been killed in every war that has been fought....


I say, however our military men and women can get home in one piece is ok...


Before anyone can comment on what's wrong or right
for our military to do....

Ask a vet from any war on some of the tactics
they have encountered from the enemy...You might be surprised
and you might just shut the fuck up and listen..

No suprises here, buddy. Just confirmed myself as a pacifist.