Philzone.org Discussion Board: Archive 2004: Politics Archive 2004: Dont let the Republican Goverment distroy this community!

Everyone who comes on this site is in danger. The Reps. are comming everyone here. Dont let this happen, things like the Rave act are real they dont care if you love bush or not they are comming for us. I heard that the DEA went into Canada and busted or arrested alot of people and Brought them here to face our laws. WTF. Dont le
t this happen please!

no wounder the boys were trying to get heads to vote.

First they came for the arabs, and we didnt care because we werent arab....

then they cam after the gays.....

......who is next?


Sieg Values Heil!

Us bit torrenters are next! Tin soldiers and Ashcroft comin'...

This is an issue that gets me worked up, so I am going to address it even though I feel it was put forth in a childish manner.

Our "community" has been under attack since October 6th 1966 when California became the first state in the union to make LSD illegal. Beginning in the late 1980's and continuing until Jerry's death, the Dead community has been subject to DEA investigation and Department of Justice prosecutions that have resulted in thousands of arrests and hundreds of convictions for LSD possession and sale.

This period includes 1993 to 1995 when the United States has a Democrat as President and a Democratic Congress.

If you believe as I do that these substances and one's decision to alter their consciousness is a sacred right, refusing to speak out and resist this abuse is cowardly.

Look at how the fundamentalists organize and fight to preserve their "community"

What are you doing for yours?

I plead the fifth.

hey why not legalize heroine also, Jerry did heroine so it must be ok. Jerry is dead because of the drugs. They are illegal for your own good. Did you not learn anything after hi death? The Dea and the FBI and the CIA dont care about you. You are nothing to them and pose no danger what so ever. They laugh at your cause, and smirk at the fact that you andyour "community" think you are more important than you really are. the 60's are over its time to throw away hash, go back to school, educate yourself and get a f#$##% job. My Goodness you are pathetic!!!

It's a little over your head huh Agatha Troll ?

Not all all, there is more to life besides LSD and the Grateful Dead. Seriously, you are pathetic people who really live in a fantsy land. That is why you lost the election

>>Seriously, you are pathetic people who really live in a fantsy land. That is why you lost the election


I lost? I wasn't even on the ticket! See, that's what too much LSD and Grateful Dead will do to you! If only I'd campaigned rather than dosed....

>>you are pathetic people who really live in a fantsy land. That is why you lost the election


That's quite a generalization. I'm sure you're a devout Methodist/Baptist/Lutheran/Presbyterian/
Catholic/Mormon/Snake Handler that regularly attends the church of your choice, regularly tithes 30% or whatever of your earnings to your church, leads bible school studies, and KNOWS that evolution is a myth.

The election was lost by close minded idiots that refuse to view the world from anywhere but their own little isolated point of view voting for the man that scared the bejeezus out of them with "terra, terra".

And what is "our cause"? That everyone live equally, without fear of prosecution of religious beliefs, that there should be "safety nets" to catch people when they fall from the path of the unemployment & stability, that "all men are created equally"?

Sounds like you espouse elitism in your view. Go drive your SUV to your next door neighbor's house, fuck his unhappy wife, kick his confused & overwhelmed children, boot the dog while you're at it, then consume that martini & prozac & be the good citizen you're programmed to be. ANd don't forget to belittle the niggers & spics that live near/around your suburban little protection zone.

those two groups of people dont live around us they cant afford it on a burger king and midas salary

so you're REALLY isolated from the real world that the rest of us inhabit.

pity.........................

Agatha, didnt you post that you were a teacher in an inner city Chicago school? Is it one of those special upper middle class all white inner city schools?

"Those people"? WTF?

Sorry, I know, I'm feeding the troll.

yse I am a teacher at an inner city school and I have first hand knowledge that most of these kids have no interest in education what so ever. I want to educate everyone who wanst to learn regardless of their color and I took this job thinking I canm make a difference and motivate them to learn. However, they do not want to learn at all, they would rather talk in ebonics, smoke pot, and have babies. So you know what, I will give my all to those who want to learn and the ones who dont can smoke, screw, drink, and listen to their rap music. Pretty soon after they end up dropping out of my class, they will wind up selling crack and going to jail. I say FUCK Them!! They had their chance and blew it.

>>Pretty soon after they end up dropping out of my class, they will wind up selling crack and going to jail. I say FUCK Them!! They had their chance and blew it.


Therte's the spirit, Agatha. That's mighty Christian of you, Pilgrim.

Can you believe that forced eugenics are banned? Think of how much better society would be....

"LaTonya Washington, I've had it with your ebonics and rap music. Please report to the nurses' office for sterilization!"

>>hey why not legalize heroine also, Jerry did heroine so it must be ok. Jerry is dead because of the drugs. They are illegal for your own good. Did you not learn anything after hi death? The Dea and the FBI and the CIA dont care about you. You are nothing to them and pose no danger what so ever. They laugh at your cause, and smirk at the fact that you andyour "community" think you are more important than you really are. the 60's are over its time to throw away hash, go back to school, educate yourself and get a f#$##% job. My Goodness you are pathetic!!!


Yes, we should legalize Heroin as well. I spend quite a few hours a week, all volunteer, trying to provide assistance for those who are struggling with problems with addictions. Today I made a presentation in a drug program that serves mostly underprivileged individuals from ghetto neighborhoods. I've been there myself and I know what addiction is like.

Freedom is the freedom to choose how to live your life, regardless if your choices are good or bad for you. The only consideration for government is whether or not your conduct violates anyone else's rights. If not, it's none of their business.

I DO think that the DEA and other Federal agencies are scared that they are losing the public in the Drug War. Why else would they override the will of 9 states that voted for medical marijuana? Let's see: People see sick individuals smoking marijuana without any apparent harm. They don't develop "amotivational syndrome" or move on to crack or heroin. This challenges the validity of arresting 700,000 people a year for marijuana.
Next thing, people are questioning the whole Drug War. Yes, I think they are scared that the whole house of cards can come down on them.

Why worry about trash that does not want learn when you have great children willing to better themselves in the same conditions as those who do not. Those who sell drugs and distract my good students deserve every bad situation and every bad thing to happen to them. That is the truth. dont critisize my ways of teaching when you are not in my position at work. i dont tell you to do your job so dont tell me how to act at mine.

Damn dude, I hope you don't teach English.

You work for the government and are paid through taxes. If you don't want to be criticized, change your profession and work in the private sector.

Those of us in the private sector don't necessarily need criticism. If we fuck up we lose sales, product, clients, etc. We have inherent impetus to do better and produce more. We are compelled to turn shit in to gold because that's survival and growth.

You, on the other hand, have the same attitude as all your other NEA cronies. You just simpered about being criticized. You have no impetus to do better because you have tenure. You work 40+ days p/a less than the rest of us and make a huge, hourly wage. For Christsakes, you don't even have it in you to care. The real world turns shit in to gold. You want to throw it out because you don't like the smell.

Dude, you would not last a day as my employee. Your sense of entitlement is glowing, yet bizarrely ironic. You aren't a Republican. You are a leech on society and the taxpayers who feed you.

Brian: You made the argument better than I could on why we should scrap the entire public education system and give vouchers to disadvantaged children.

You, on the other hand, have the same attitude as all your other NEA cronies. You just simpered about being criticized. You have no impetus to do better because you have tenure. You work 40+ days p/a less than the rest of us and make a huge, hourly wage.

Teachers are filthy rich!! They get paid to do nothing and are laughing at us while they roll around in their big pile of money. All govenrment workers are lazy and don't really work especially those good for nothing firefighters that sit around an watch movies all day. We should privatize everything because afterall only a person who has worked in the private sector knows what it means to really work.


Has anyone ever seen the best of Will Ferrel?
"You can't talk to me like that, I am a division manager!!!"

Let's not oversimplify this one too much.

There are public sector employees that are hardworking.

Usually private enterprise is more efficient that the public sector, but there are exceptions.

We should privatize what we can, but we need to take care to avoid Halliburton like situations where private companies become shielded from competition by association with government.

The only thing we need to scrap is tenure. If I have a bad attitude and do a shitty job, I get fired. A tenured teacher, on the other hand, can hate their pupils and do a substandard job with no fear of recrimination.

Agatha is one of those teachers. It is very apparent by his post. He has no respect for his profession or his students and their lot in life. I don't understand how one can be an effective educator with that attitude. But, when you have tenure you don't have to be effective, do you?

There are other reasons besides bad teachers why we ought to scrap the government schools, and you made the points yourself.

I don't see Agatha answering my points about the drug laws. Being that conservatives usually talk about personal responsibility, why do they usually support prohibition? isn't it one's personal responsibility to abstain if one has a problem?

I don't do drugs anymore. I'll defend someone's right to do so any day of the week though.

There are other reasons besides bad teachers why we ought to scrap the government schools

Yea that would really work. How many private schools or investors would want to set up shop in the middle of the ghetto? Without the government there would be no schools there. Did you know there is a law that require banks to have certain amount of locations on the south side of chicago near Comiskey/US Cellular. if it wasn't a law there would be none there.

The Nugent board is missing their superstar posterboy again.

I rock!!!

>>How many private schools or investors would want to set up shop in the middle of the ghetto?

I was in the "ghetto" today and I noticed a Muslim primary school. Probably serves about 50 students. In the "ghetto" you would probably see a lot of Christian and Muslim schools plus a smattering of progressive experiments in Black neighborhoods, in Hispanic neighborhoods it would be mainly Catholic schools.

Agatha, the ones who don't want to learn are exactly the ones you should focus on--they need you the most. And yes, I know whereof I speak--I teach middle school special ed. Perhaps teaching isn't for you--maybe a bounty hunter, or a tax collector...those jobs require no sympathy at all.

>>>>>Freedom is the freedom to choose how to live your life, regardless if your choices are good or bad for you. The only consideration for government is whether or not your conduct violates anyone else's rights. If not, it's none of their business.

I've never met an H head who could support a full blown habit without stealing.

Ever meet a musician?

>Therte's the spirit, Agatha. That's mighty Christian of you, Pilgrim.

Hilarious, excellent point BK...however the irony is lost on Agatha.

>I've never met an H head who could support a full blown habit without stealing.

If H were legal, the cost of it would decrease dramatically reducing the requirement for stealing/crimes etc. to pay for the habit.

It costs very little to produce H. It's the risk factors in importing and selling that drive the price up.

>>>>hey why not legalize heroine also, Jerry did heroine so it must be ok. Jerry is dead because of the drugs. They are illegal for your own good. Did you not learn anything after hi death? The Dea and the FBI and the CIA dont care about you. You are nothing to them and pose no danger what so ever. They laugh at your cause, and smirk at the fact that you andyour "community" think you are more important than you really are. the 60's are over its time to throw away hash, go back to school, educate yourself and get a f#$##% job. My Goodness you are pathetic!!!

Talk about pathetic. who are you to tell me what is for my own good. Go to hell you shallow, bitter, self-rightous, bigoted pea-brain. I feel sincerely sorry for your students, that you would make sweeping judgements on them. No wonder Chicago schools blow. Teachers like you. Get bent. I thank God that people who think like you are in the minority in this state. I would rant more, but I have to get back to work to pay the taxes that support losers like you. You are a drain on the system, and completely worthless. I wish I was on the school board in your district, cause I could pull your license.

Nice post Dan. Someone neded to say it, and you said it well.

>>>Ever meet a musician?

Ha ha...good one..yeah, I have and at $50 a pop...it's robbery. lol

Actually, I was talking about folks in my life, some who I once considered friends, who wandered down a destructive path and never returned.

>>>Not all all, there is more to life besides LSD and the Grateful Dead. Seriously, you are pathetic people who really live in a fantsy land.

Fantasy... so what! So is religion. Who the hell are you to define what other people should or should not do? Very pretentious of you.

Agreed--defining religion as a fantasy is fairly judgemental, but I take your point. The non-invasive practice of faith is what is sorely lacking in our country--from anyone. My christian faith was once referred to as superstition by some pagan friends of mine. They were, and are, good folks, but the irony was not lost on me.

Dont want to start and argument but I think the correlation is relevant... at least in the context I am thinking.

If I want to lay around listening to the GD, digging the earth, dreaming of a simpler world with peace and love... not realistic in a general sense, but it does have an affect on who I hang with and the mood of my immediate surroundings.

If someone else wants to spend time whistling hymns, dreaming of Jesus and an ideal Christian world... same thing.

>>Actually, I was talking about folks in my life, some who I once considered friends, who wandered down a destructive path and never returned.

Yes, It's a sad thing - I was there and fortunately I made it back. I work very hard today to make sure that others who find themselves in similar circumstances know that there are tools available to help themselves find their way back.

The fact nonetheless remains: In a free society, one's life choices, even if ultimately self destructive, are properly beyond the reach of government intervention as long as the rights of others are not violated.

>>>Not all all, there is more to life besides LSD and the Grateful Dead. Seriously, you are pathetic people who really live in a fantsy land.

>>Fantasy... so what! So is religion. Who the hell are you to define what other people should or should not do? Very pretentious of you.


Exactly! I don't claim to be an expert on Platonic philosophy, but he talks about the "good" which is how one should lead one's life. Contrast that with the "right" which is the duty owed to one's fellow man.

The "right" consists of not violating one's neighbors rights, tolerance of others.

The "good" is how we choose to live our own lives.

In a "Liberal" society as traditionally defined
(c.f. John Stuart Mill "On Liberty, etc..)
One's personal conception of what makes a "good"
life is an idea that competes in the marketplace of ideas, not an issue for politicians to try to influence with legislation and tax policy, etc.

Getting back to this conception seems to me to be the only way to settle the culture war.

Nope, no argument at all--a very civil and creative discussion. I was a little put off at first, but then Jesus told to me to relax--we're all God's children. Keep up the good work--best thread I've seen in a while.

It seems to me Agatha needs a new career path. Anybody that cold blooded shouldn't be teaching children.

I must admit to being a little curious.

Agatha, are you male, or female?

You've chosen a woman's screen name. You are a serious gay basher. Your anger issues are so severe that they have to be affecting you on a physical level. This kind of bitter, dark emotional energy raises cortisol levels, which has a deliterious effect on the immune system, if left unchecked.

Why are you so angry?

Just curious. No disrespect, but when i first started seeing your posts I pretty much just wrote you off as another narrow minded bigot. But this is clearly something else.

I always figured male....hmmm....is a mystery now....just like a Christie novel.

>>>However, they do not want to learn at all, they would rather talk in ebonics, smoke pot, and have babies. So you know what, I will give my all to those who want to learn and the ones who dont can smoke, screw, drink, and listen to their rap music.

I've said this before, but it's worth repeating. These kids are a hell of a lot SMARTER than their teachers. They realize that the typical career paths that a public education is supposed to open up are generally not as available to them as a white suburban kid, especially given the ongoing attacks on affirmative action. So they pragmatically turn to the things that hold out at least a chance of improving their low standard of living (compared to the majority of Americans)--rap music, sports, gangsta-ing, etc.

If you really want to close "achievement gaps," you got to give kids an incentive for applying themselves. Right now things are moving in the opposite direction as low-wage jobs proliferate, affirmative action dries up (especially in the private sector), "the thug life" attracts suburban kids and their (parent's) dollars, and the concept of equal opportunity is relegated to "Survivor" episodes. And vouchers would only further erode the equal opportunity that public education is supposed to help guarantee--in theory.

>>And vouchers would only further erode the equal opportunity that public education is supposed to help guarantee--in theory.

I believe that vouchers CAN help these disadvantaged individuals IF they are funded properly.

As far as the rest of your analysis goes, there is a bit of truth to it, but I don't believe that opportunities for these kids are as limited as you suppose.

In psychology, there is a concept called "learned helplessness" where those who believe they have no control over their fate are less likely to try to affect outcomes than those who believe they have more control.

I believe this is a big factor among the disadvantaged, possibly more so than the actual opportunities made available.

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread. But to address the starter of the thread...

"brah", I agree with you that this administration has done a poor job, but how does that make all Republicans bad? Do you really believe that all Republicans support Bush? Do you really believe all Republicans are out to get you? It really amazes me how many open minded folks on this board categorize all Republicans as being evil.

And fyi brah, it was a Democrat who introduced the Rave Act.

Any legislation against drugs should be an insult to everyone living in this country. What our government is telling us when they make a drug illegal is, "You are not smart enough to make your own decisions." Governments job should not be to protect adults from themselves.

"brah", I agree with you that this administration has done a poor job, but how does that make all Republicans bad? Do you really believe that all Republicans support Bush? Do you really believe all Republicans are out to get you?

No I dont think all republicans are out to get me, to be honest i think alot, maybe half are really libertairan. I believe rep.s did start Rave Act 2. I know things have been going on since the 60's but they think they have a moral duty to take everyones comunity down. The senate elect from OK said something like "in southwest ok lesibians are so bad girls can only go to the bathroom one at a time, think about that really think about that". what the hell is that all about. I dont think most reps think that way but this shows what type of people are in that party.


please forgive spelling

its very clear that people who think of me myself and I are just sad people. Some teachers make alot of money and some dont, why should a teacher pay to supplies for the class? i know some who pay like 800+ a year for supplies.

Angtha is a sad person, I feel sorry for you, just think with an open mind get to know people and learn about them i bet you will find alot in common. You should GET OVER they way you think about peole because you dont know anything about most people, and you teach kids.

C'mon people Agatha is just a troll. He probably doesn't believe half the crap he writes. He just does it to get a rise out of you. His little wee-wee gets harder the more angry you get.

Exactly...as I've been saying, he's not real.

>>>but I don't believe that opportunities for these kids are as limited as you suppose.

Based on what, Michael--other than sheer optimism and apologetic psychology? Sorry to be flippant, but every measure of economic opportunity that considers race, gender, and class that I've seen contradicts your belief.

Your mention of "learned helplessness" also seems to me to be a backhanded reference to the distinction between the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor or "disadvantaged." Please prove me wrong....

Race, Gender and Class are certainly a factor OVERALL, but they are not the only factor.
Culture has a large amount to do with success.
How is it that immigrant groups have been able to surpass native born blacks? My co-worker came to the U.S. from Guyana 17 years ago and started from the bottom. He is a homeowner today. I see it all over New York, my borough Queens has over 100 languauges spoken here. Most immigrant groups came in the last 40 years, and are becoming solid middle class. I know racism is certainly still around today - I've seen it, but I feel it's overplayed as an explanation of Black social problems.

If you get a high school diploma today and are willing to start on the bottom, odds are you will become middle class in your lifetime, black or white.

Michael:

Your point about culture is right on the money, and it reminds me that I didn't explain what I meant by racism very well. I think you're correct that direct racial discrimination has been more or less eliminated from American institutions--and where it hasn't been eliminated their are legal means of redress. However, there is another form of racism, generally referred to as "institutional racism," that has not been dealt with in any substantial way. It occurs whenever a single cultural tradition dominates civil institutions.

American civilization was created from the confluence of two powerful cultural traditions: the Enlightenment and Judeo-Christianity, especially the Protestant heresy of individualism. The forces behind this unprecedented act of civilization building were colonization (obtaining land and resources, including surplus labor) and capitalism (generating wealth from the land and resources). At the human level, capitalism rewarded the ability "to buy cheap and sell dear." However, this concept of getting something for nothing (except enterprising gravitas, of course) was at first distrusted by the majority of people in the world who still lived according to the demands of a limited ecology in which each appropriation required equivalent payment of some sort. Capitalism, as an economic system distinct from a market/moral economy of equivalent exchanges, took off in the nineteenth century with the spread of a particular ethos, identified by the sociologist Max Weber as "the Protestant ethic," that validated risk-taking, self-interested egotism, and the ability to delay gratification. It also became associated with freedom and liberty because it challenged established feudal hierarchies based on reciprocal relationships with its perfect individualism. Although initially a product of Euro-American civilization, the Protestant ethic and individualism spread throughout the world via European colonization, including to French Guyanna.

But capitalism and colonization always generate winners and losers--the haves and have-nots, the colonizers and colonized, the oppressors and the oppressed (this was Marx's great insight--or at least he was able to popularize it). As these class distinctions grew within the USA and throughout the world, those who lost out to colonization and capitalism-- Indians, Africans, Asians, the Irish, southern Italians (in other words, non-"whites")--developed an oppositional culture and ethos to cope with the expropriations they had experienced. This ethos generally validated collective struggle, mutualism, and immediate gratification. The USA became truly unique by the end of the nineteenth century because it mixed these opposing cultures to an unprecedented degree by becoming the most capitalist and the most accessible nation on earth ("give us your poor and huddled masses"). Conflicts were then inevitable, but the unfulfilled promise of American democracy is that such conflicts can be settled peacefully via democratic electoral politics. Theoretically, when a majority is oppressed in one way or another, they should be able to mobilize politically and gain power to redress their majoritarian grievances.

But, as I've pointed out before, American democracy, while substantial, is not complete due to the Founding Fathers' gentlemanly distrust of uneducated masses. Hence we still have the Senate, the Electoral College, etc. More importantly, many civil institutions--schools, corporations, welfare programs--were constructed with the Protestant ethic in mind. They inherently reward egotism, delaying gratification, etc. while punishing socialization, sensualism, etc. This is the basis of "institutional racism;" it stacks the deck against people who are born into "oppressed" cultures and absorb oppositional values. But like I said, the USA is unique in promising both liberty and equality. In keeping with these two ideals, many oppressed cultures have utilized American liberty to create counter-institutions--unions, the organizations associated with black separatism, AIM, etc.--and organize themselves to achieve American equality.

I think it would be ideal if public institutions--schools, the economy, welfare, government--developed in such a way that balanced and rewarded both of these cultures. But currently the Protestant ethic still prevails, especially within the economy.

Basically, my graduate thesis is that popular American rock music HAS developed a culture, economy, and ethos that combines oppressed and oppressor, haves and have-nots. For instance, some musicians with enough ambition and talent have become "kings" of rock and roll--Elvis, Little Richard, Bob Dylan. But for those with less ego or less talent there are bands in which they can play a role and improve their chances of success--consider Jerry Garcia (less ego) and Bob Weir (less talent) in the Grateful Dead for example. Furthermore, given rock and roll's unique cultural hybridity, things are always in flux. A Robbie Robertson or John Fogerty starts out in a band that helps him develop the talent to match his ambition, and once he does so, he "goes solo," leaving his less ambitious bandmates to more or less start over as a less talented, but still collective, group. Or a Jerry Garcia or Bono remains committed to the group he started with and expends his excess talents in side projects (although I think in Garcia's case the excess responsibility of maintaining the Grateful Dead "family" took its toll via drugs). Or Don Henley goes solo only to find that he was more successful with his old band The Eagles and so "hell freezes over."

I think what makes rock music so outrageously popular is this diversity and flux. Unfortunately, this social multiculturalism, distinct from biological multiculturalism, has not been successfully transferred to other American institutions and politics. It is the monoculturalism of Libertarian philosophy and many of your postings that, to be honest, disturbs me--which is not to say that their is anything inherently wrong with the Protestant ethic or libertarian values. It's their exclusivity that concerns me. As the son of a corporate executive and devout Presbyterian, they're the values I was raised to respect and practice, and I still do. Unfortunately, I was too shy and introspective to "capitalize" on my egotism and ascetism. Rock and roll helped me to understand that there are alternative, equally valid paths for my own "pursuit of happiness."

Well, that's my personal politics and philosophy in a nutshell. Sorry for the long-winded explanation of what I meant by racism. Hopefully, it makes me and my postings a bit more comprehensible, if not necessarily more agreeable.

Have a good night.

Waiting to cut out the deadwood.
Waiting to clean up the city.
Waiting to follow the worms.
Waiting to put on a black shirt.
Waiting to weed out the weaklings.
Waiting to smash in their windows
And kick in their doors.
Waiting for the final solution
To strengthen the strain.
Waiting to follow the worms.
Waiting to turn on the showers
And fire the ovens.
Waiting for the queens and the coons
and the reds and the jews.
Waiting to follow the worms.

Would you like to see Britannia
Rule again, my friend?
All you have to do is follow the worms.
Would you like to send our colored cousins
Home again, my friend?

All you need to do is follow the worms.

I feel bad that I rarely give your writings justice in my replies. Time is always short...

Anyway just a few points:

Culture is instrumental as cultures have varying degrees of efficacy in different situations.

You can have a cultural tradition that emphasizes hard work and delayed gratification.
This is common in many immigrant groups.
It is not necesarily "right" or "wrong" in a moral sense, but it can benefit the holders greatly as they amass wealth faster than others.

At some point, these values reach a point of diminishing returns. The children of immigrants are usually less frugal and less likely to delay gratification.

I think the 1960's were a major assault on the protestant work ethic.

You would be surprised that I strongly believe in the Hegelian dialectic as a means of understanding how change occurs.

The protestant work ethic of 50's America meets empowered minority groups with more sensual ethos.

Result: a changed America.

Unfortunately I don't think the balance was optimal. We still have repression AND irresponsiblity. I'm hoping for cultural change that balances rationality and responsibility with an ability to truly enjoy the sensual.

The "Janet Jackson" caper shows me how far we have to go for the latter.

I've been writing a bit in Personals under "Sober Phil Friends". I've been trying to challenge a view of addiction and recovery that is rooted in sin and redemption, a view highly rooted in our protestent cultural tradition.
There is an active dissent in the recovery community that is trying to bring the enlightenment traditions of reason and humanism to bear on this subject. It's apropo to your essay.

Don't
Government
Destroy
Coming
Wonder

Need that cash to feed that jones...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041118/D86DVIG00.html

>>>Unfortunately I don't think the balance was optimal. We still have repression AND irresponsiblity. I'm hoping for cultural change that balances rationality and responsibility with an ability to truly enjoy the sensual.

I agree, and I think unfettered capitalism is largely responsible for this ongoing discrepancy. Where we differ I think is that you prefer to emphasize personal rationality and responsibility, whereas I prefer to stress social democracy via collective struggle. Without some measure of social democracy, I think too many personal struggles against addictions get swamped by more powerful, concentrated forces encouraged by the capitalist marketplace (selling "sex, drugs, and rock and roll!")--except of course for those individuals who manage to develop an "enlightened" constitution and become the "supermen" (or women) that Nietzche--and Nock(!), although he doesn't use that term--called for during another period of history in which "civilized" people became disillusioned with the results of modernity.

>>> In psychology, there is a concept called "learned helplessness" where those who believe they have no control over their fate are less likely to try to affect outcomes than those who believe they have more control.

I believe this is a big factor among the disadvantaged, possibly more so than the actual opportunities made available. <<<

Michael, you are just sooooo much the Social Darwinian, arent you? It's the victims fault. The poor are poor cause they dont just pull themselves up by their boot straps and just WORK HARDER.

Im not raggin on you, not a bit - you just seem to really fit into that Libertarian-esqe ethos that says if everyone looked out for themselves and kept their best interests at heart, then the "invisible hand" would move society further.

Yeah, the 3rd generation crack heads in East St Louis just dont have the right attitude. That'd make all the difference. Forget their lack of social services, their poor education, or their lack of jobs.

Dude, that's fucked up.

Dont worry Jeff. We get faith based charities to help those in need now, course if you arent of the faith...

>>Yeah, the 3rd generation crack heads in East St Louis just dont have the right attitude. That'd make all the difference. Forget their lack of social services, their poor education, or their lack of jobs.

I would love to see better social services, education system, and job opportunities for those at the bottom. Nonetheless, being a "crackhead" is a choice. It may appear to be a rational response to a situation that seems hopeless, but having no job or education doesn't make one use drugs in a destructive manner. One's interpretation of one's circumstances may facilitate such a choice though.

>>Michael, you are just sooooo much the Social Darwinian, arent you? It's the victims fault. The poor are poor cause they dont just pull themselves up by their boot straps and just WORK HARDER.

Like much in life it's a numbers game. It's much harder to start with little opportunities and make great advances. Nonetheless, some do manage to go far from little. Why? personal atributes in some, cultural values in others, or a mix of both.

I'm not a social darwinist nor am I a pure libertarian. I think there should be a decent amount of redistribution to assist those at the bottom to pull themselves up. However I am skeptical about the ability of any type of programs to make more than modest inroads.
Individual and cultural values are somewhat resistant to outside influences in the short term. It will take a combination of sustained opportunites AND cultural change to empower the underclass.

Nicole, apropos meditation on the ground beneath our feet--an original composition or a borrowed one?